DIY Silver Interconnects - Quick and Easy (#2)

  • Manos_Bits

    Manos_Bits

    ACA Member

    Dewald V wrote:
    Manos if your statement was true then cable such as the Anti-Cable ICs would not have worked. I have tried the construction and it works perfectly well.
    Twisted pair speaks for itself.
    Cable such as the Nordost Blue Heaven I use doesn't even have a EMI rejection construction. It is simply straight strands of silver plated copper ribbons adjacent each other.

    Hi...

    If a cable sounds well in our ears does not mean that 'works perfectly well'

    Twisted pair is a pair of equal length conductors twisted equally around themselves or around a Teflon tube(xlo, ultraling and so)

    It is sure that if someone plugs anti ic's in his system will hear sound...
    but I really cannot understand the philosophy of the design or even totally agree that this is a hifi cable...

    Anyway... we are here to discuss some things... and why not agree or disagree...

    13  22 Mar 2010  
  • Dewald V

    Dewald V

    Registered

    Another note I would like to mention regarding positive and negative path lengths... Inside the audio equipment the paths vary and is not kept at equal length due to design constraints on the PCB etc. Youll usually find a central ground plane with positive paths all over the place.

    14  23 Mar 2010  
  • Trouble

    Trouble

    ACA Member

    This is a very good topic indeed. Good work and please continue gentlemen..we are reading and awaiting for both your outcomes.

    15  23 Mar 2010  
  • Mikekan

    Mikekan

    ACA Member

    I agree, good topic, keep 'em coming! :)

    16  23 Mar 2010  
  • Manos_Bits

    Manos_Bits

    ACA Member

    Dewald V wrote:
    Another note I would like to mention regarding positive and negative path lengths... Inside the audio equipment the paths vary and is not kept at equal length due to design constraints on the PCB etc. Youll usually find a central ground plane with positive paths all over the place.

    This is a compromise...just because we cannot have two single wires from input to output...inside an amp or a dac or a crossover...
    This would be the ideal circuit... But simply it cannot be... If you open an amp or whatever electronic device you shall never see the input or output cables to be asymmetrical or unequal...

    And do not compare PCB's with cables...PCB's are active elements with very small routes compared with cables that are passives and longs...

    Electricity and signals are (+) and (-) equal values and must treated as equals and symmetricals in all points... Length, resistance, capacitance, geometry(if we talk about cables)...and so...

    17  23 Mar 2010  
  • Dewald V

    Dewald V

    Registered

    Manos_Bits wrote:
    This is a compromise...just because we cannot have two single wires from input to output...inside an amp or a dac or a crossover...
    This would be the ideal circuit... But simply it cannot be... If you open an amp or whatever electronic device you shall never see the input or output cables to be asymmetrical or unequal...
    And do not compare PCB's with cables...PCB's are active elements with very small routes compared with cables that are passives and longs...
    Electricity and signals are (+) and (-) equal values and must treated as equals and symmetricals in all points... Length, resistance, capacitance, geometry(if we talk about cables)...and so...

    Au contrair...

    In single-ended designs we have a signal line (+) over a ground plane. In true BALANCED designs there is a FLOATING signal line (+/-) over a ground plane.

    PCBs can right well be compared to wires and cables since a PCB is simply a bunch of wire connections neatly arranged on a substrate. If a PCB takes part ACTIVELY in a circuit then it is distorting the signal i.e. capacitive coupling. That is unwanted. A PCB (read: Physical board) should always be passive and the circuit it carries ACTIVE.

    In a single ended design the ideal would be to keep your ground line/plane as short as possible to prevent ground-loop anomalies. Making the ground plane equal in length to the SIGNAL line wont help much.

    I can back this because I am working on a SINGLE ENDED TRIODE AMPLIFIER design in my spare time. Having long ground lines is only looking for trouble. All ground paths lead to a singular point with least resistance disregarding length compared to the SIGNAL/+DC POWER lines.

    Now in a BALANCED system your signal carrying lines needs to be equidistant to ensure that it will be able to reject any EMI/RFI noise.

    I am not arguing. I am simply explaining what is basic electrical practice.

    Getting back to the DIY CABLE. The ground conductor is spiraled with the intention to "absorb" some EMI/RFI noise. Try it and report back.

    PS - I wish I can show you the wiring here at the studio where I am working currently. Some Audiophiles will fall on their back if they see how it is executed.

    18  23 Mar 2010  
  • Manos_Bits

    Manos_Bits

    ACA Member

    If someone disobeys a well known and well working rule must...

    a) explain why
    b) create a new BETTER rule about what is doing ...

    Talking about the particular cables or the anti-ic's...the rule of equality in length, thikness, geometry etc...it is broken...

    So...What rule shall tell us the length, the thickness, the distance of rounding the 'external' negative cable???

    19  24 Mar 2010  
  • Trouble

    Trouble

    ACA Member

    Dewald V wrote:
    Here is a quick and easy DIY project for the audio enthusiast...
    Custom silver SE interconnects
    Supplies:**
    [LIST=1]
    [*]4x Quality RCA Plugs (Neutrik, WTB, Furutech)
    [*]5 meter drawn silver wire (from your local gold smith)
    [*]2 meter teflon tube with an OD of ~2 mm
    [*]2 meter teflon tube with an OD of ~6 mm
    [*]5 meter Megamide/Nylon braided sleeve with an OD of ~8 mm
    [*]1 meter heat shrinkable tube with an OD of ~8 mm
    [*]Silver solder
    [*]Necessary tools (soldering iron, side-cutters, heat gun, etc)
    [/LIST]
    Procedure:**
    [LIST=1]
    [*]Cut two pieces of silver wire of 1 meter as well as two pieces of teflon tubing. Thread wire through teflon tubing.
    [*]Divide the remaining 3 meter silver wire in two lengths of 1.5 meter each. Take a piece and wrap it around the first tube with the straight piece of silver wire. Spread the spiral evenly along the length of the inner teflon tube.
    [*]Thread the assembly through the ~6 mm teflon tubing (which should be cut to 1 meter lengths each). It will be tricky but a steady hand a patients would do it.
    [*]Cut four pieces of 250 mm heatshink tube.
    [*]Using a hot soldering iron cut two pieces of 1 meter nylon braid sleeve. Thread the "cable construction" through the braid sleeve.
    [*]Slip two pieces of 250 mm heatshrink over each cable assembly.
    [*]Solder straight conductor to RCA center pin and spiral conductor to the ground point. Remember to slip over the RCA barrel overs it the attach from the rear of the assembly.
    [*]Slip the heatshrink over the assembly inside the RCA unit with some protruding at the rear and secure with heat (using a heat gun)
    [*]Close up the RCAs with the supplied barrels and enjoy your new DIY silver cable!
    [/LIST]
    The spiral assembly can be substituted for a conventional "twisted pair configuration".

    My two cents on this wire deal Dew...

    A) What method should we use for the extraction?
    B) What should be the diameter of the silver conductor? The od in other words (overall diameter)
    C) Why is the positive one meter and the negative is one and a half?
    D) If this is meant to be, then what happens with the resistance between the two lengths? Don't we have a higher resistance in the longer of the two? And how do we face this problem, there will be a time lapse between the two I think.
    E)Thus, I believe that the diameter of the negative must be more than the positive if you do it your way. Would it be better to try the parallel position of the conductors with even lengths and diameters?

    What do you think....Please do remember to state what diameter the conductor should be.

    Thats my 2 cents....

    20  24 Mar 2010  
  • Dewald V

    Dewald V

    Registered

    Trouble wrote:
    A) What method should we use for the extraction?
    B) What should be the diameter of the silver conductor? The od in other words (overall diameter)
    C) Why is the positive one meter and the negative is one and a half?
    D) If this is meant to be, then what happens with the resistance between the two lengths? Don't we have a higher resistance in the longer of the two? And how do we face this problem, there will be a time lapse between the two I think.
    E)Thus, I believe that the diameter of the negative must be more than the positive if you do it your way. Would it be better to try the parallel position of the conductors with even lengths and diameters?

    A) Extraction?

    B) .125 to .25 mm solid silver

    C) The NEGATIVE conductor needs to be slightly longer than the positive so that it can be spiralled around the positive's dielectric. Go look at the construction of Anti-Cable ICs

    D) The resistance difference is so low it is negligible.

    E) Yes, that is a good conclusion. Twisted pair configuration can be used with great success.

    Try is before making any judgments. Wont cost you more than 30 Euros to construct.

    Not wanting to point any fingers but this is what gets me about the Audiophile community: they can easily judge, yet they will accept ANYTHING that is sold with a SUPER HIGH price-tag.
    If i.e. Audionote make and sell cables, following my construction and sell it for thousands of euros, no audiophile will question its design but will only praise its sonic beauty.

    Anybody here ever heard of FM Acoustics?

    21  24 Mar 2010  
  • Manos_Bits

    Manos_Bits

    ACA Member

    Dewald V wrote:
    ........................................
    C) The NEGATIVE conductor needs to be slightly longer than the positive so that it can be spiralled around the positive's dielectric. Go look at the construction of Anti-Cable ICs[/QUOTE]
    The inner conductor (+) is 1 meter long and the outer (-) is 1,5 meter...so is not 'slightly longer'...It is 50% !!!
    [QUOTE]
    D) The resistance difference is so low it is negligible.
    [/QUOTE]
    But there is difference...We talk about hifi...
    [QUOTE]
    E) Yes, that is a good conclusion. Twisted pair configuration can be used with great success.
    .........................................

    The inner conductor is absolutely STRAIGHT... Only the outer is twisted... So This is a 'TWISTED SINGLE' config and NOT 'TWISTED PAIR'...

    22  24 Mar 2010  
  • Dewald V

    Dewald V

    Registered

    Manos_Bits wrote:
    The inner conductor (+) is 1 meter long and the outer (-) is 1,5 meter...so is not 'slightly longer'...It is 50% !!!
    But there is difference...We talk about hifi...
    The inner conductor is absolutely STRAIGHT... Only the outer is twisted... So This is a 'TWISTED SINGLE' config and NOT 'TWISTED PAIR'...

    What is the problem Manos? Have you constructed the cable yet?

    Hi-Fi is not elevated above any other electronic devices.

    On point E I referred to a CLASSIC twisted pair - as Tony also did... please re-read the thread.

    Manos, I will not continue to take part in this discussion if you do not build one of these cables yourself and THEN report back. You try to bash me on theoretical points. I have been active with electronics and hi-fi for the past 12 years now and I am well versed with the basics so please don't try to challenge me.

    Here is a picture of the Anti-Cable ICs. I do not have a picture of my cables. When I get back from the studio I will post some pics.

    23  25 Mar 2010  
  • Trouble

    Trouble

    ACA Member

    Dewald V wrote:
    A) Extraction?
    B) .125 to .25 mm solid silver
    C) The NEGATIVE conductor needs to be slightly longer than the positive so that it can be spiralled around the positive's dielectric. Go look at the construction of Anti-Cable ICs
    D) The resistance difference is so low it is negligible.
    E) Yes, that is a good conclusion. Twisted pair configuration can be used with great success.
    Try is before making any judgments. Wont cost you more than 30 Euros to construct.
    Not wanting to point any fingers but this is what gets me about the Audiophile community: they can easily judge, yet they will accept ANYTHING that is sold with a SUPER HIGH price-tag.
    If i.e. Audionote make and sell cables, following my construction and sell it for thousands of euros, no audiophile will question its design but will only praise its sonic beauty.
    Anybody here ever heard of FM Acoustics?

    Dew, please understand that I am not trying to pick a fight, but learn. You of all people know I am a **** fer brains DIYer. But through you I am trying to learn. What I mean by extraction is the temperature the silver when its being molded. Any other factors which must be taken into consideration? I am just trying to make less mistakes and conform to your exact specs, as well as learn and question what doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't have or comes close to your experience.

    As for FM, yes we all know of the products, especially its older models, but believe you me, its not that we believe in high end cables, we believe IF not anything else Most compnies r a ripp off....the Sakra at 10 grand though is an absolute wire in my mind. I just can't afford it now...especially after German intervention in an attempt to ruin Greece beyond what the Greek politicians already do.

    We r trying to find answers to the wire question which I feel is a Very important part of the chain..

    One more thing..

    Manos is a very vivid and fruitfull minded person, he sometimes comes out as aggressive, as I thought when I met him, but he is rather extremely passionate about our hobby, so much so as to drive you mad sometimes. But in the end you will see, once you get to see the devils advocates logic, you will be delighted..he is refreshing and very smart indeed...

    24  25 Mar 2010  
 
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